The Wonderful Counselor with Rhonda Duff-Baptiste M.S. E.d., S.C.

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Memories. [00:00:00] Speaker B: Passion. [00:00:01] Speaker C: Alone. [00:00:02] Speaker B: Mourn. [00:00:03] Speaker C: Guilt. [00:00:03] Speaker B: Loneliness. [00:00:04] Speaker A: Regret. [00:00:05] Speaker B: Peace. [00:00:06] Speaker C: Relationships. [00:00:07] Speaker B: Unfamiliar. [00:00:08] Speaker A: If you put God first, you'll never be last. [00:00:11] Speaker D: This is Grief at the Cookout, hosted by DiCarlo Raspberry. Hello, family. Welcome to grief at the cookout. To day, I am joined by another mother of mine whom I call family. Rhonda duff Baptiste. Rhonda is a mother, educator, counselor, certified safe conversations leader, and owner of Unbroken Interactions, LLC. She is the mother of my best friend, and she believes that love, laughter, and kindness build bridges and elevates the soul. Tune in as we discuss the grief that she has encountered in education and counseling and how she has been able to navigate through it all. [00:01:10] Speaker B: Hey, Ma. [00:01:11] Speaker C: Hi, son. How are you? [00:01:14] Speaker B: I have another mother on the podcast. [00:01:17] Speaker C: Yeah, that's my son. The easy way. [00:01:20] Speaker B: Welcome to grief at the cookout. I am so glad to have you. Thank you for coming. [00:01:27] Speaker C: Thank you, DaCarlo. Of course. I would do anything that you asked me to. You know that. So I'm glad to be here, and. [00:01:33] Speaker B: I'm really proud for a million dollars. [00:01:36] Speaker C: When I get it. When I get it. [00:01:40] Speaker B: So, everyone, you know how we do in real, true fashion here at Grief at the Cookout, we always ask our guests, what is your favorite cookout food? [00:01:51] Speaker C: My favorite cookout food is potato salad. But here's the thing. I don't like everybody's potato salad, and I didn't realize that potato salad was such a big thing in our community. But I make my potato salad a certain way. People generally like my potato salad and ask for it. [00:02:11] Speaker B: I love it. [00:02:12] Speaker C: Thank you. Yes, you do. Right? [00:02:15] Speaker B: It has peas in it. Because mom here. She's guyanese. She's from New York too. [00:02:27] Speaker C: Brooklyn. [00:02:27] Speaker B: Brooklyn. BK. And this food is so good. I remember her saying I said, that. [00:02:38] Speaker C: Potato salad has carrots and peas. I don't think I want it. [00:02:44] Speaker B: But it is so good. All the food is so good. [00:02:49] Speaker C: It really is. [00:02:51] Speaker B: Speaking of cookouts, I got to get up there for yes, yes. [00:02:56] Speaker C: Because Mommy is always very upset when DeCarlo doesn't come to New York for Thanksgiving, right. Because he completes the family. [00:03:02] Speaker B: Yeah. And AG is still asking for that lasagna and get around to it. [00:03:07] Speaker C: Yes. So that was his job. One of the Thanksgivings, he made a lasagna, and it was killer. It was really good. That was some lasagna they had me slaving. Yeah. It was worth it, though. It was worth it. [00:03:22] Speaker B: That's what we do, folks. That's how we start. We start off on a great high note, and we got to laugh. I love it. So mom. [00:03:30] Speaker C: Yes? [00:03:30] Speaker B: You are an educator. [00:03:33] Speaker C: Yes, sir. [00:03:34] Speaker B: When I met you over ten years ago and by the way, guys, this is my best friend's mom. So, boom, when I met you, you were a teacher. Now, remind me, what grade did you teach? [00:03:51] Speaker C: Okay, I remember when you and Kalia came to the school that time. I was teaching fifth grade at that time, and then I shifted over. I taught fifth grade, I think, for five years at the school where I was, and then I taught second grade for another two years. [00:04:10] Speaker A: Right. [00:04:10] Speaker C: I had taught previously at two different schools before that. But the school where I last was, when you and Kalia came, that was my home. It was my home, yes. I taught those two grades at that school. Second grade, it was the gifted class, and I had a series of remarkably gifted children. Yeah. [00:04:29] Speaker B: So we have an educator, and now she is a counselor. [00:04:33] Speaker C: Yes. [00:04:34] Speaker B: So tell us briefly about your process from switching over to because I'm interested in this, and I'm pretty sure someone else is, of switching over still in the education field, but in a different arm. So what was your process from being going from teacher to counselor? [00:04:50] Speaker C: Okay, so it started this way. Actually, I wanted to teach for some, but because my mom was a teacher in Guyana, one of my sisters, Allison, was a teacher up until June, she retired. And my other sister, Rose, she's an engineer. However, I never really wanted to dedicate the time that it needed. I like being in school, but I don't like the extra process. After you want me to write how many pages, paper? What do you want me to do? So I never really wanted to do that, but after I was working I can't say the name of the place, can I? Anyway, I was doing tech support. I was doing tech support, and I was supervising, and I was a consultant. And then that came to an end shortly after I had Adina. I had never not worked. I always had some sort of job since, you know, part time, not making a whole bunch of money, but a little something for myself. So by the time I got laid off, I was actually making a pretty decent salary and decided to just stay home with Adina for a little bit. And then I decided it was time to go back to school because I had gone to the unemployment office and asked them, can you check my resume? Because I'm applying for all of these things and nothing's happening. And the woman told me, she said, well, why didn't you finish school? And I'm like, I have an associate's. She said no. She said, look at all of this experience you have, and your education doesn't match. She said, that's probably why nobody's calling you. And I said, okay. And then I made the decision to go back to school for teaching. I knew at the time that I wanted to. I either wanted to go into counseling or psychology, but wasn't really sure. But I knew that I needed to teach before I did that because I needed to understand exactly what was expected of students in the classroom and what teachers actually go through, because counselors are there to support students and teachers. We're there to support the whole school building, so to speak. So I knew that's what I needed. So I got my bachelor's degree in teaching with a minor in Children's studies. And then, of course, I waited until the very last minute to get my master's degree, because in New York, you can teach for up to five years with just your bachelor's in education, but then you have to have a Master's. That's for the Department of Education anyway. So I ended up going back for my Master's in two years. No, let me fix that. So it's clear. I waited until I was teaching for three years, and then I had to finish my bachelor, my Master's, in two years. So I was teaching full time and going to school full time. What ultimately solidified my desire to be a school counselor was one of my nieces, Cindel. She was a brilliant student, but had a difficult time testing. And in New York, you're required to take a series of tests in order to graduate high school. And there are some students that struggle with some of the testing. And it turns out that she had finished all of her requirements and was still waiting on one test, and it had been quite some time since she had finished her requirements and was still struggling with that one test. And I remember going to the school with my sister in law, her mom, and her to find out, what can we do? How can we help? And I know Rosie had tutored her also. And even though I'm an educator, I am not the family tutor. That's not my gifting, not the math. I will do the math that I could do for my babies, but like, that extra. Yeah. Kalia Adina, they never came to me for that sort of help. They went to Auntie Rosie and write, I'll write things for you. But that other stuff, that's not. So we went to the school, and remember, her guidance counselor at the time said that he wished that he could do more, and he was so frustrated because there was so much on his plate, and he wanted to be able to give her more support than he was really physically able to do. And just in talking with him, it made me make the decision that's what I wanted to do. So remember, there was a choice between psychology and counseling, and I chose that as a result. Long story short, we were able to get her testing, collaborate with the school, and she graduated. I got her the information in hand in writing before I took it to her house to let her know she graduated because it had been so painful for her. [00:09:35] Speaker A: Right. [00:09:36] Speaker C: So that drive to help and support children was really solidified, and it was awakened even more so through that experience. [00:09:47] Speaker B: Wow. And so now you're a counselor for the same grade, or is it middle school? [00:09:54] Speaker C: So I am in a three K through eight school. Yes. Three k through eight. So we have from three year old students to 8th grade students as a school counselor. Last year was my first year as a building counselor. I've been working as a school counselor for four years, but it was through a different program. So last year was my first foray into being the building counselor, which requires a lot more than people realize. And I was required to support the elementary school and the junior high school. This year, we were able to get support from a program that had already been there, the program that I started with. And we had junior high school counselors in that program. So now they are doing the mandated counseling for the junior high school children. So I'm primarily focused on elementary school, but I provide support wherever I'm needed. [00:10:46] Speaker B: So you counseled the whole building? [00:10:50] Speaker C: My goodness, yes, sir. [00:10:54] Speaker B: Wow. So everyone for me, why I wanted to have Ma. I'm going to just call her Ma. So listen, y'all know what her name is? I see it. Rhonda. That's a name. [00:11:07] Speaker C: That's right. [00:11:07] Speaker B: But I call her know. That's my term of endearment. But I wanted to talk to her as a counselor because I remember when I was growing up, I looked forward to seeing my counselor. I was a child during my elementary school years. I was rough. I was in anger management, and there were two places that I wanted to go when I had an episode or when I was having a bad day, and that was either A to my counselor or B to my music teacher. And those were my outlets. But I looked forward every Wednesday at Swansville Elementary School in Columbia, Maryland, to go to see my counselor because I needed that time. I needed to sit and talk with her. And so upon doing this podcast, we really don't think and we really don't ask, what does the counselor go through? All we see is just the counselor. The counselor is there, and I think the counselor is wonderful. When you get to high school, you have your advisors for some of us, and they are in a shape and form of a counselor. They hold your hand. They walk you through the process. They make sure you graduate. They tell you like it is. They give it to you real. So with you mob in this new counselor role, I'm an educator as well, right? But I'm not a counselor, but I work in that area. But I can't imagine what you go through. But being a counselor in this school system, what are the challenges? And I know you can't speak specifically, so you got to give us overview, but what are the challenges that you have experienced that has caused you grief in areas? And what we define grief on this podcast is the absence of joy things where sometimes where we take them home. Being educators, sometimes we come home with dealing with whatever the stresses of the day are. But from the lens of the counselor, tell us a little bit about your day to day and what you kind of have to deal with that causes that absence of joy where your heart feels. [00:13:31] Speaker C: Yeah. So there are a couple of things, grief, like you said, there is an absence of joy, and it comes from a loss of something dear to you. [00:13:43] Speaker A: Right. [00:13:45] Speaker C: That's one aspect of it. And there, of course, there are a lot of different components to grief. What causes me to take things home sometimes is when I guess when I feel a little helpless in knowing that I may be able to provide support and direction in one particular area. But there's so much more that needs to happen in order to help make this child or this adult feel whole. And those are the things that I carry with me. I remember when I first told Kalia that's my eldest daughter, of course, his best friend, that I was going to be a counselor. And she said, Ma, how are you going to do that? And I said, what do you mean? I said, I couldn't do that. She goes, but you cry all the time. [00:14:32] Speaker B: This is true, yes. [00:14:34] Speaker C: So I was like, I can do it. I can navigate it. And so there is a time where I cry, and just because the level of empathy that I'm able to feel, sometimes I wait till I get home and I kind of breathe it out. But there was one time, actually, maybe about a month ago, where I had to go to my office and one of my friends at work, who's actually the pupil secretary, she followed me because she saw it. I think she saw it coming. I didn't realize they saw it. I just said, I'll be right back, trying to be like, I'm good, right? I'll be right back. And I couldn't pull it together. I thought it would just be a little breathing and get myself back to baseline. And I wept. I wept because there was also a connection to something that I felt that I was missing as well. Not to be too detailed, but there was a situation with a father working really hard to support his children, and he was doing what he should be doing, and he was fighting for his children, and there was just something that was occurring. Not to be too I can't give too much detail, but there was something that was happening that I thought was so awful in terms of just what was happening to him as a person and as a father. Because I know a lot of times people say my father wasn't there, and that sort of thing. My father was there and wasn't all at the same time. And the thing I believe that got me was watching his pain, for one. But then also the knowledge or the belief that I had that my father would not have fought for me that way. [00:16:30] Speaker A: Right. [00:16:31] Speaker C: So I felt yeah, it was really tough because I felt a lot of pain for him at the loss that he was experiencing and watching him grieve. But then also knowing that I was grieving for a relationship that I didn't have that level of. [00:16:50] Speaker B: Wow thinking. Just hearing you say that sheds a light just on the educational field. How when we are doing the best that we can, when we're going to the ends of the Earth, when we're giving our all to children, that it doesn't register with us, that I'm actually giving this to this child because I didn't have it. But not only are you giving to children, but you're giving to adults. You're supporting adults and as well as children. [00:17:34] Speaker C: Yes. [00:17:35] Speaker B: That's difficult because sometimes adults can be just as bad as children. Sometimes I would take the child versus taking the adult. [00:17:46] Speaker C: Yeah. Because there's something remember I told you I started working with families and being able to help them have healthy conversations with each other in order to arrive at a common goal. [00:18:02] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:03] Speaker C: So that they can understand what the other person's going through. [00:18:08] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:08] Speaker C: Because sometimes when you're angry, you're seeing the person with whom you're angry as a target and you're not looking at where their anger or where their pain may be coming from. Right. [00:18:18] Speaker B: The root of the problem. [00:18:19] Speaker C: Exactly. So in my perspective, we're all operating on a level of brokenness. And everybody's brokenness is a little different. [00:18:25] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:26] Speaker C: So sometimes when you see a teacher or staff respond to a child in a particular way, in my head, because I'm walking to the situation, I might be like, girl, you didn't really have to do that. However, there is a reason on both sides, a reason why the child may be behaving a certain way and there's a reason why an adult may respond a certain way. And yes, we're trained in how to navigate situations, we're trained in how to work with people, we're trained in trying to keep focus on what the situation is and making sure that everyone is safe. But there is also the human side of us that has the history that we may not have even dealt with. [00:19:04] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:05] Speaker C: And so I'm not sure if I'm still answering the question correctly, but no. Yeah, even when I was literally weeping in my office, I was aware. I was aware that I was crying for watching this man cry for his children, but also dealing with my own pain, my own brokenness in that form of a paternal relationship that wasn't as the way I would have liked it to be while I was growing up. [00:19:39] Speaker B: And so when you're dealing with situations, how often do you see yourself in the situations? That's a good question. How often do you see yourself. For instance, like, for me, because I deal with special needs children, and I deal with children with anger issues, and they like to spaz out and different things like that. And because I was labeled as a child, I'm not so quick to label a child unless we know that they're on the spectrum. And when we know a child is on the spectrum, there is a label, because you have to develop an IEP, a POA, something like that for the child. But when you see a child that just spazzes out because they're angry, you realize that it's something deeper than just what meets the eye and that there could be things going on at home. The child may not feel like they are heard or understood. And so I often see myself in those children that get angry and just go off because no one understands them. And it's interesting when you actually sit and you talk with the child and you ask the questions, well, how do you feel when this happens? Well, did you feel it was right? And they give you honest answers. And so I see myself, that was me. That was me as that child. And it helps me become a better person, because now it's like, not only am I applying this tactic of how I'm dealing with this child, but I'm applying that not just to them, but I'm applying it to adults. I'm applying it to my personal situations. I'm applying it to my relationships and how I deal and how I talk with people, because it makes you more aware of what people are going through, because we never know what people are going through. [00:21:43] Speaker C: I agree with you 100% as you're speaking. I'm trying to process how I navigate through situations, and I think a lot of times those outbursts in adults and children come from unmet needs. [00:22:03] Speaker A: Right. [00:22:04] Speaker C: Whatever the situation is, the feeling that you're not being heard, or that, like you said, there may be something going on at home that the child has no control over, and sometimes there's not. The languaging in place to be able to properly articulate what you're really going through, what you need, what you'd like done. And a lot of times when things like that happen, I ask my coworkers and friends, Baby, what do you need? How can I help you? What do you need? Because we don't always know what it is. We may see similar behaviors, but we don't know what's at the root of it. Some of it, as I've seen this week, it might be okay if I act all the way out, they are going to call my parent mom, she's going to come get me, because that's what I want to be here. I want to go home. And so let me do this, because after a while of me doing this, they're going to be like, okay, we're calling it. Ma, come get him right so that's one need, it may seem simple, but there's something else going on with that. What is the need to be home? What is it that's missing? [00:23:09] Speaker A: Right. [00:23:12] Speaker C: There was a baby that we have. He's not really in our school anymore, but he had experienced so much loss in already dealing with his diagnoses, so to speak, in addition to losses that he's experienced. And almost every week this year, up until he was no longer in our school, almost every week there was a violent outburst. And I found myself just grateful that he wasn't that big. [00:23:40] Speaker A: Right. [00:23:41] Speaker C: Because it was dangerous. But there was a need there. He wasn't properly able to articulate what it was. We were able to understand some of the root of the pain that was causing the outburst, but not to the depth that he needed us to. You know what I mean? So do I see myself in some of the children sometimes? Yes. I know that we weren't able to act out because my mother would have handled it very differently from how we were allowed to handle it in school and how parents, I think, now are allowed to navigate through certain situations where your children won't come on the subject. However, I think the pain I can identify with. The pain I could often identify with. We were teased and bullied when we first came to this country. We were foreign, we had accents, we were dark skinned. So all of those things I have a lot of pain where those things are concerned, but I'm grateful because that pain and that torment that we went through, I believe, is responsible for making me as empathetic. Me and my siblings, making us as empathetic as we are very empathetic. [00:25:09] Speaker B: If I've ever met a group of family that's so empathetic. [00:25:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:25:17] Speaker B: Very empathetic. [00:25:19] Speaker C: Yeah. Because we know pain. We know pain, unfortunately. We know the pain of loss. We know the pain of feeling othered, not being accepted, being judged. We know that pain. So there are times when I think the pain not at times, I think for the most part, that pain has worked in our favor because we had each other. I don't know that the outcome would have been the same if we had to endure independently. [00:25:53] Speaker A: Right. [00:25:54] Speaker C: It drew us closer together, and it's made us be able to understand. And sometimes not because grown folks sometimes could flip out with you. [00:26:07] Speaker B: Right? [00:26:08] Speaker C: Because it's also a control thing. Why can't I control your behavior? Why couldn't you listen to me? I'm your teacher. I'm here with you. Why can't you just do what I asked you to do? Why do I have to call someone? We're supposed to have that relationship, and then it's also with me, too. As a counselor, I want us to have that relationship. I know you may have an outburst, but there are times that I feel and I think it's a human response. There are times that I feel I don't want to say inadequate, but it's like, I want to help you. I want you to trust me. You can come scream in my office. You can put your head on me and get that anger out. Trust me. So there are times when that can be something that's hard for me. If I know that a child is in pain, I know a child is frustrated, and I can't sue them. Does that make sense? [00:27:12] Speaker B: Yeah. No, it does. And this is kind of like a segue to something that I don't think educators, leaders in the school system talk about enough. The bullying, the teasing that leads children to want to take their own lives. [00:27:41] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:27:45] Speaker B: From your perspective, how are you navigating? Because being on the front line of that, you're dealing with the emotions, you have insight into the family life, into their educational life. It's like an octopus. [00:28:06] Speaker C: I kind of see yeah. [00:28:08] Speaker B: I see a counselor as like an octopus and no shade to the therapist, because they are starting to put therapists in schools. But it's almost like I see the counselor as, like, a social worker. [00:28:24] Speaker C: Right? Some of us are. Yeah. [00:28:26] Speaker B: And some are. And then they have now social workers in the school as well. They have, like, all three, which I'm like, Dang, where was those when I was growing up? But the counselor, like, for instance, you supporting the whole building, which is bananas, but how were you able to function? And I'm a teeter totter here with your spiritual walk, because when we deal with heavy stuff all day, it does something to us. We start to experience some of these symptoms that people are going through. But dealing with the bullying, dealing with hearing children say they want to take their lives or they hate their life, how do you navigate through those very sensitive moments? And how do you it's two part. [00:29:34] Speaker C: Okay. [00:29:35] Speaker B: And from the spiritual aspect, because I know we pray. We're praying for children when we leave. Yes, but how do you just not just break out in prayer right there and really go to the throne on behalf of the child and the families and the adults? [00:29:58] Speaker C: Well, for me, I do pray for them. There are times when and it's not a big, Heavenly Father, Lord, come and be busting out. I can't do all of that. It's a school building. [00:30:12] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:13] Speaker C: Sometimes I lay my hands on them when a child is very irate, sometimes I may put my hand over their heart. [00:30:23] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:24] Speaker C: And at that time, I'm asking God, Lord, please help me. Help this baby. Help him through. Help her through. [00:30:32] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:33] Speaker C: Tell us what to do. Show me. Because I don't think I can navigate well when I don't. And there are times that things are happening so fast that I feel like I may not be tapping in enough. [00:30:42] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:42] Speaker C: And that's real. That's something that sometimes when there is a lot happening. I don't always take the minute to pray because it feels like things are happening so fast and then I kind of have to back up after it's all done and pray through the situation. For me, it's not something I can do effectively without loving the families and praying for them. Right. The human side of me sometimes gets angry with what some children have to experience. But I also have to understand that same thing I said about brokenness. These are many dysfunctions in our homes. They're coming from the mother or the father being in so much pain themselves or having gone through so many things that we're never really repaired. So they don't really realize that they're operating out of that level of dysfunction or that level of brokenness. [00:31:41] Speaker A: Right. [00:31:42] Speaker C: And there's only but so much that we're allowed to do and say. In terms of speaking with parents, I do my best to try to guide them. If I'm having a conversation with a parent and I get that little segue where I hear that maybe they go to church or I hear that they have a family member that prays for them, I kind of interject a little bit as much as I can without crossing the line, you understand? Directing them to praying and continue to leaning on the Lord. If you open the door, I'm going to come in. Right, right. If you open the door, I'll come in as much as you'll let me. And it's a tightrope walk sometimes because you have to kind of gauge it and there is a balance because you're oftentimes dealing with families that are in pain and so you can't come off like you all high handed and you know, when your life is perfect. Sometimes if a mom is going through something, it might be a divorce or whatever. I'm not ashamed to share with my families. Yeah, I'm divorced as well. Yeah, that happened to me as well. Or I get it. You will get through this piece. This is the tough part, you understand? I'm not ashamed to share what I may be going through or what my children may have experienced. I'm not really ashamed to share that. [00:33:02] Speaker B: Because I don't overcome by the power of our testimony. [00:33:04] Speaker C: Exactly. And you don't want. [00:33:10] Speaker B: It'S like you want to be relatable. [00:33:12] Speaker C: Yes. [00:33:14] Speaker B: I don't want to see that opening. [00:33:16] Speaker C: I jump all the way. Yeah, right. [00:33:19] Speaker B: Happened to me. [00:33:23] Speaker C: Because a lot of times, too, people think that I'm proper. Right, right. [00:33:26] Speaker B: But you are. It's a funny proper too. [00:33:32] Speaker C: Exactly. I don't want people to think that I won't understand or that I'll judge them. [00:33:41] Speaker B: Right. [00:33:42] Speaker C: There are certain things no, that's not been my experience. I didn't have to experience parents doing certain things outside. I didn't have to deal with that. [00:33:51] Speaker A: Right. [00:33:51] Speaker C: So I'm not going to pretend I did. I wasn't on the corner and I wasn't doing any of that. However. The human side of me understands some of that stuff that people have been through, because I haven't experienced it, but I may have seen it and seen the destruction of know with some parents. I'm not afraid to say, no, don't have your baby outside of you. How come he's not with you? No don't do know, I'm not ashamed to say that because we know where I work, in the South Bronx, right. And there's so many things that our babies have to deal with, and so sometimes I need to be an ally to the parent so that they know that, no, there's nothing wrong with not letting your kid be outside without you. No, what's the curfew? That's a little late, you understand? But I can't just come out and say that without first building some sort of rapport and see the human side of me. Yeah. [00:34:46] Speaker B: And it takes that type of relationship. There's another question that I want to ask you, and this is actually new. Recently, with Florida passing this bill, this don't say gay bill again as educators and as people on the front line, you're dealing with the children firsthand, you're dealing with the staff firsthand. So it boggles my mind that lawmakers can make laws that they don't really know nothing about. And you can say, this is what we're going to do based off of how parents feel, but people are negating and neglecting what children are going through. What children are going through today is very different from what I went through in the 90s coming up as a child. What you went through, it's very different. So what we're faced now and this is a big topic because it leans on people's ideologies, their faith, what they believe, what they see to be right, or what they say, this is right and this is wrong. Right. But we're dealing now with children who are going through heavy identity cris crises. We have the non binary terms. We have they, them, theirs. People are wanting to be referred to as he or she, those different things. So in this new age of dealing with the identity and I call it an identity crisis because people just don't know what's going on, right? And people have their own belief systems on what they feel children should be learning at a certain age. But children are so exposed to everything through social media. So we can't sit and expect for children to kind of say, well, this is what I think I am, or this is when they've seen it, when they've been exposed to it, or if they've been molested, or if they've been raped. Children have gone through so much. But you have children that are very smart, that are very intellectual, that can communicate more effectively than adults, that can say, this is what I think that I am. This is what that I believe. How are you navigating that as a counselor dealing with children who are referring to themselves differently from what you see. [00:37:34] Speaker C: Okay, so this is actually a very good question. There are a couple of things, and I'm going to have to talk about my own growth where that's concerned. My answer that I will give you now is very different from the answer I would have given you ten years ago, maybe. [00:37:54] Speaker A: Right? [00:37:55] Speaker C: Yeah. Growing up in the church and being and being taught that it's sinful. [00:38:06] Speaker A: Right. [00:38:08] Speaker C: And having to come to terms myself after seeing after having my own child deal with it and the pain that I know she experienced because I didn't understand. You understand being aware because of my education and because of my interaction with children, being aware that there have been so many suicides because families and organizations didn't accept homosexuality, didn't accept people for where they were. [00:38:47] Speaker A: Right. [00:38:49] Speaker C: Knowing the pain and brokenness caused by churches. Yes. Teaching the gospel, but also making people feel that who they are is bad. Okay. There is nothing in me at this point that believes that we have the right to decide who people are. Do you understand what I'm saying? We don't have the right to do that. There have been so many children that are murdered, homeless, that die by suicide because of people not understanding or not supporting who someone is. And I'm going to even put in abortion rights. I know as a Christian, I'm not supposed to support abortion. [00:39:55] Speaker A: Right? [00:39:57] Speaker C: I mean, TMI I've never had one, but if I needed one, I don't want somebody telling me that I can't that's right. It's not your place. [00:40:06] Speaker B: It's not fair to tell no one what they exactly. [00:40:09] Speaker C: It's not your place. And especially, we live in a country where we will fight for people to not have abortions, but when the child is here, you want no part of them. [00:40:23] Speaker A: Right. [00:40:24] Speaker C: So we don't have the right. [00:40:29] Speaker B: Right. [00:40:30] Speaker C: I believe that a school should be a safe place for children no matter what they're experiencing. [00:40:39] Speaker A: Right. [00:40:40] Speaker C: So a teacher oftentimes when I was teaching, I used to tell the parents that we have joint custody from September to June. [00:40:48] Speaker A: Right. [00:40:49] Speaker C: It's our child. We're sharing responsibility. I have my part, you have your part and their parts that we have to manage together. [00:40:55] Speaker A: Right. [00:40:56] Speaker C: If a child is able to feel confident enough in a teacher, in a teacher's love and care for them to come and express to that teacher what they're experiencing, the teacher has to have the right to interact with that baby. That's not fair to anyone. That's not fair to anyone. I think that law is out of place, and I think it's dangerous. I don't know as much about it as I should because I got an attitude when I heard it right. And I didn't explore it as much as I needed to. But there are children I don't know if you remember. I remember liking a little boy when I was in elementary school, right? You can't tell me that I didn't like the boy. Do you understand? And I think if most of us are real with ourselves when we say that kids don't know I used to think that kids don't know, right? I used to think they don't really know. You shouldn't be telling them that they're these different non binary this or that. We shouldn't be telling them that that's not true. When I say that's not true, I think we expose them as much as they are prepared for it. I don't think we should go in a kindergarten class and teach full sex education, all that. No, that's not what I'm saying, and I don't think it has a place there. But if a child asks a question, it shouldn't be illegal for a teacher or an educator to speak to that. [00:42:23] Speaker B: Child in some type of way, because when they're children, it's like your kids, right? And I think people are mixing up the respect level with their own beliefs. [00:42:38] Speaker C: Right? [00:42:38] Speaker B: And now it's becoming ficocta, because it's just like, wait a minute, you're not looking out for the well being of the child now. You're looking out for what you think is right. [00:42:49] Speaker C: Right. [00:42:49] Speaker B: And what do you think should happen? [00:42:53] Speaker C: Right? [00:42:53] Speaker B: And again, like you said, teachers, educators, counselors, you're with the child more than the child is with their parents during the school week. [00:43:04] Speaker C: Yes, they are. Right. [00:43:05] Speaker B: You're more privy to what is happening with them. You see them all the time. And when something is off, you know when something is off. And it's just interesting enough that, of course, with the political climate that we're dealing with in America now, all of these different things, from abortion to race, dealing with children, mixed children who deal with different things than children. Who are just full African American. Now I'm a part of two different communities, and I deal with the family that doesn't like me or have an issue with me. Those things people are not thinking about. We're thinking about children. We're thinking about future leaders. And you cannot impose I don't feel that it's fair for anyone to impose my belief system on you. [00:44:10] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:44:12] Speaker B: I can tell you about what I believe in. If you're interested, I can show you and give you whatever you would like to know. But it's not fair for me to make you believe what I believe. [00:44:24] Speaker C: Right? [00:44:25] Speaker B: And growing up in our community, in the black community, we grow up in these communities where everything is imposed on us for us to believe, but then we find out that it's all dysfunctional. It's bad for a person to like the same sex, but it's okay for you to be married and have a mistress. [00:44:48] Speaker C: Okay, talk about it. [00:44:49] Speaker B: Talk about it. It's okay for you to lie. It's okay for you to sleep with multiple women or sleep with multiple men in the church. It's okay for you to gossip and spread all the business, but a person who's just saying, this is how I feel, and who may or may not be acting on it because that's another issue that people don't really talk about, or that, this is just how I feel, I don't feel comfortable in my skin. And then now it's all of these different things. And so what we're doing is we're not helping the situation, and it's bringing more divisiveness to the community than it should. [00:45:30] Speaker C: I agree. Like I said, I've grown. I remember when I first started dating Rich, I think I told you about this before. We had a series of conversations. And what I didn't realize, he said, when dealing with I don't want to put out more than she wants me to put out. You understand what I'm saying, right? But in dealing with my baby and me having a tough time coming to terms with it. And one of the things he said to me, he said, and again, this is not her biological father, this is my partner, he said, she's ours and we have to love her. And that did something to me, because if someone is telling me that I have to love my child, then what I'm doing must be coming across as unloving. Do you understand what I'm saying? How I'm handling the situation? Even though at that point I thought that I was doing what was right and what God would have me to do in raising my child, if it was coming across as unloving, then I wasn't doing it properly. Do you understand what I mean? And so that has taught me a lot. And seeing what people go through, it has taught me a lot and realizing that we don't have the right to tell somebody how they feel. We don't have a right to tell someone that what they're feeling and what they're experiencing is wrong because it's not how we do it. Do you understand what I'm saying? I don't have to understand it to support you. It doesn't have to be my walk to support your walk. Right. [00:47:28] Speaker B: And I will even say, although I'm not a parent, but I do have children, tons of kids that you're around all the time, I feel like I am a parent, but I also say to people, because I'm a huge perspective taker, okay? And that's one thing that I've learned. When you're in the business of service, you have to take perspectives because you have to be able to see it from my side, see it from someone else's side. And I will say to people, parenting is hard. It's not easy. Parenting is hard. And I think that one of the earlier episodes that I had, we talked about cancel culture. And I think sometimes with the new wave that things are progressing, that we are canceling in some form or part our own parents, and we're not giving them the opportunity to grow, the opportunity to grow, but to also realize they are going to make mistakes because I'm also their first child. [00:48:41] Speaker C: Yes. [00:48:42] Speaker B: When I look at my dad and I look at the mistakes that he made, that he had admitted when we had a conversation that he made and that he had apologized for, I realized it's huge on that. It's huge. But also that you can't give me what you don't have. [00:49:07] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:49:09] Speaker B: So it's hard for a parent to give something they don't have. When you look at households and we talk about love in the household, if the parent didn't grow up with love, it's going to be hard for them to show love in so many avenues. They probably know a form and say, I can do that. But when it's something that they don't understand, they may not know how to love in that aspect. And that comes from, as you said, the dysfunction operating in the level of brokenness. Now, moving forward in this position, two things when you have dealt with grief and your own personal life, how have you managed to serve in the capacity of your job function and not allow the home life, the personal issues to not affect you? [00:50:23] Speaker C: It would be easy for me to say that I've always been successful at that. I have unfortunately been able to when I say unfortunately because there are times that I think that it may not have been the healthiest thing for me, but there have been times that I've been able to compartmentalize what's happening in my personal life and dealing with my responsibilities at work. I have literally gone through entire separation and divorce and didn't skip a beat at work. [00:51:06] Speaker A: Right. [00:51:10] Speaker C: In dealing with my sweetie being ill right now, I have been able to compartmentalize most of the time. But there are times when it's been difficult for me to concentrate before it came more easily, that I could walk into the building and kind of whatever's happening outside, just kind of pretend it's not happening. It's been a little harder recently, but I'm giving myself the minute. I'm working to give myself a minute or two that I might need in order to get myself centered and pour out. [00:51:53] Speaker A: Right. [00:51:54] Speaker C: So I think me acknowledging that I wasn't in a good place or that I needed a minute has been helpful to me to get myself truly balanced, I think before just pretending that I was fine and just literally blocking it. No, I don't think so. I was able to do my job, but right in terms of my personage may not have been the best thing for me. [00:52:22] Speaker B: Are you able to apply the advice and the guidance that you give to your students and your fellow staff members to yourself? [00:52:37] Speaker C: Most of the time? [00:52:38] Speaker B: Most of the time. [00:52:39] Speaker C: Most of the time. Because medicine is easier to give than take. Right. And that's real. We know what needs to happen. [00:52:54] Speaker A: Right. [00:52:55] Speaker C: And there are times one of my coworkers showed me something yesterday. It was kind of funny because I'm a cancer. Right. I know the sign thing that there's good and bad about it. [00:53:08] Speaker A: Right. [00:53:08] Speaker C: But I know that I'm an emotional person. [00:53:12] Speaker A: Right. [00:53:12] Speaker C: My kids know that I am. And there are times that, you know, but if I don't check in with myself, I don't see the outbursts coming. You understand if I'm checking know, Rich said it to Kalia the other day. He said, you know how your mother looks when she's about to go? And she's like, yes, I do. Right? [00:53:39] Speaker B: To be true. [00:53:40] Speaker C: Yes. And Adida will sometimes kind of mommy, Mommy, no, Mommy, let's not I don't want to talk at mom. Sometimes she knows that the conversation may seem like we're doing okay, but it's like if we keep talking, she's going to go. Right. At times, most of the time, I am able to operate under the same advice and support that I give, but there are times that if I'm not in tune with myself, I could lose it and don't even know it's coming. [00:54:18] Speaker B: Wow. It's so interesting how and I think that sometimes it makes us such great servants because that's essentially what we're doing. You're serving, you're a servant, and you're so able to give and give all of this, but then when you look at yourself, sometimes it's like, oh, I've neglected myself. [00:54:44] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:54:45] Speaker B: I've neglected my feelings. And then I can't take the advice that I gave to so and so. [00:54:53] Speaker C: I'm right this minute. [00:54:54] Speaker A: Right. [00:54:55] Speaker B: But it's just so interesting how, like you said, it's easy to give it, but it's hard to take. [00:55:03] Speaker C: Yeah. The good thing is that the older I am now right. The older I am now, as I get older, I'm more aware of my triggers. [00:55:13] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's really good. It pays to be aware. [00:55:19] Speaker C: Yeah. I'm more aware of my triggers, and they're pretty simple. I don't like people being mean and disrespectful. I don't like it sometimes if I know you're lying, and then it's perpetual. I don't really have patience for it. I have a tough time sometimes, even with my kids. I let them know, look, my school kids, I let them know I'm the counselor. I'm not the one that doles out punishment. Right? You don't have to give me the BS, because I see it sometimes. I'm the textbook. Okay, so tell me about that when I know you lying. [00:55:57] Speaker A: Right. [00:55:57] Speaker C: And there are other times when I'm like, okay, all right, so you told that story, right? You know that I know it's not true, right? And then there'll be the pause, shoot, I got caught. It's like, look, you're not in trouble with me. I'm just trying to help you make a different decision for next time. So let's come with the truth so we can navigate it. [00:56:21] Speaker A: Right. [00:56:22] Speaker C: Sometimes they go with it. Other times, it's like they still keeps there, and I kind of glaze over a little bit, but I can only support you from where you let me. [00:56:34] Speaker B: That's good. I can support you from where you let me. Wow, that's a good nugget. You all better write that down because I am right. So, Mom, I appreciate everything that you said because you have given us such a different lens on how to look at things. And I think that it's really just important that in our community, or as I like to call it, the cookout, that we really are able to check in with all aspects of our community. And sometimes I feel that we forget the educators. I feel that we forget the counselors, and I feel that we forget those who work in the trenches who I will say do not get paid enough. Do not get paid enough. They do not pay educators that craft leaders. They don't pay them enough. Educators that craft performing artists who run the world in some aspect that has such a great influence. Influencers educators who create influencers through their teaching style, through their love, through their care. They don't pay them enough. But speaking to this is specifically for the educators, for the teacher, the lunch lady, because that's a teacher too. [00:58:15] Speaker C: Right? [00:58:15] Speaker B: To the superintendents, to everyone in the educational build, what can you offer them moving forward in this current climate? [00:58:29] Speaker D: What advice would you give them? [00:58:34] Speaker C: The advice I would give is what I think I do. You got to lead with love. Lead with love. I believe that what we have to navigate sometimes is so difficult and so painful that if you're not operating from a place of love, you're not going to be able to be effective because I think you won't understand the worth. Do you understand what I'm saying? You have to be able to love every child that you're working with, every adult in the building. [00:59:06] Speaker A: Right. [00:59:07] Speaker C: And it's not always easy to do, but I think understanding that we're all different and you really do have to meet people where they are. You really do. And love on them from where they are, because I don't think a lot of people are able to do that effectively. Well, I shouldn't say that there are some people that may not be able to do that effectively, but I think I know it sounds like all roses and tulips and whatnot, but love is key. I really think that that's what it is. You got to operate out of love, family. [00:59:43] Speaker D: It's very true when said that medicine is easy to give than take. And sometimes we have to remember that we can only support ones from where they let us. But never forget to lead with love and love people from where they are. You might join in grieving, but you're going to come out healed. I love you and thank you.